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Darkside X
Hail to the King, baby.

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Outside reality.

Pratical also has a lot of will (or lacks a sense of pain). Anyone who can tear off their stitched on arm and beat the crap out of others must have one!

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Torment NPC's>> Hargrimm
Marvel Super Heroes>> Frank Castle, The Punisher

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Old Post 04-16-2002 11:13 PM
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Erebus
Son of Chaos and Brother of Nyx

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Tartarus

You mean Paranoid, I suppose. ;-) Right enough, but, after all, you do things like that too (pull out your own eye, for example...). I wonder just how many parts of himself TNO left across the planes...


Erebus

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Old Post 04-16-2002 11:22 PM
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Padmewan
Saving Grace of the Isles

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Cambridge, MA

Er, could someone cut and paste the "official" answer to a sticky?

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Old Post 04-17-2002 12:29 AM
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Trebleclef
Cynic of the Isles

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

That would be something of a big-arse spoiler, wouldn't it?

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Old Post 04-17-2002 01:20 AM
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Padmewan
Saving Grace of the Isles

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Cambridge, MA

Well, like a spoilers FAQ on things like who the voice actors were, composer, etc.

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Old Post 04-17-2002 02:35 AM
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StarcraftJunkie
Black Islander

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:

"One, TNO *did* serve in the Blood War - or rather one of his incarnations (or more) did. I believe the memory you have with Dolora and the wargame is of the Blood War. So he can't have become immortal to get away (or he lost out in the end - but see point two). "

Actually, it never states in the wargame that it was in the Blood War, nor does it even mention fiends, the lower planes, or the planes in general. Where'd you get the idea that it involved the Blood War, besides the fact that it involved a battle? It could well have come from one of TNO's other incarnations or have been from a completely unrelated battle that the original incarnation participated in.

"Two, the Good Incarnation tells you that you became immortal not because you signed a contract, but because you were immensely evil and would *suffer* when you died. The afterlife would not be paradise for you, and so you became immortal."

That doesn't mean he didn't sign a contract consigning his soul to Baator. If he was just immensely evil, he would have become a larva on one of the lower planes upon his death, not keeped his form (assuming he didn't tell a lie that resulted in someone's death, in which case he would have been consigned to the Pillar of Skulls). Thus, I believe that something else had to have been at work (regardless of whether Fhjull was involved in it or not).

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Old Post 04-17-2002 07:43 AM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

quote:
"One, TNO *did* serve in the Blood War - or rather one of his incarnations (or more) did. I believe the memory you have with Dolora and the wargame is of the Blood War. So he can't have become immortal to get away (or he lost out in the end - but see point two). "

Actually, it never states in the wargame that it was in the Blood War, nor does it even mention fiends, the lower planes, or the planes in general. Where'd you get the idea that it involved the Blood War, besides the fact that it involved a battle? It could well have come from one of TNO's other incarnations or have been from a completely unrelated battle that the original incarnation participated in.



Y'know, I could have sworn I said 'I believe'... Hey, what do you know, I did.

'I believe' is not the same as 'It is'. I did not say that 'The memory is of the Blood War'. I said that 'I believe that it is of the Blood War'. Nothing about I *know* it is the Blood War, based upon evidence I don't have and doesn't exist. Nothing about how, because I believe it is the Blood War, you must believe it is the Blood War too. All I said was 'I believe it is the Blood War', as there is no detail, no explanation of what war it really is, and the Blood War's the biggest out there, isn't it?

But why are you addressing this? It was a side point, a brief meandering, a little comment that has nothing to do with the main point - that TNO has already served in the Blood War. I understand if you thought that memory was my evidence for the statement 'TNO served in the Blood War', but I had assumed you had completed the game and seen the other evidence (doesn't TTO say he learned alongside you when you served in the Blood War, for example?). Otherwise, don't make a straw man outta me.

quote:
"Two, the Good Incarnation tells you that you became immortal not because you signed a contract, but because you were immensely evil and would *suffer* when you died. The afterlife would not be paradise for you, and so you became immortal."

That doesn't mean he didn't sign a contract consigning his soul to Baator. If he was just immensely evil, he would have become a larva on one of the lower planes upon his death, not keeped his form (assuming he didn't tell a lie that resulted in someone's death, in which case he would have been consigned to the Pillar of Skulls). Thus, I believe that something else had to have been at work (regardless of whether Fhjull was involved in it or not).



No, he wouldn't. Read what the Good Incarnation has to say. He says how you would *suffer* in an especially hellish afterlife after you died, and so that is why he sought out Ravel to make him immortal. You wouldn't be reborn as a wriggling larva in the Lower Planes to just suffer as any other diabolist. You had a special hell made for you, because of the vast sea of evil that was your life and deeds.

Contracts with devils have a tendancy to be either immediate or eternal. A mage summons a devil and bargains with him to provide knowledge and power. In return the devil usually gets:

The mage is transported straight to the Pit of Baator to serve in the Blood War, or:
The mage, upon his death, becomes a petitioner in Baator to serve in various duties (building Baalzebul's cities, tearing up the streets of Dis, etc.)

Generally Blood War soldiers are either devils (lawful evil peeps who have died and been reborn as larvae who become lemures, nupperibos and the rest) or mercenaries (who haven't died but have been taken away by the legions of Hell).

Besides, do you have any evidence for the 'contract' theory? Other than the novel (which has little to do with the game) and the explanation provided doesn't necessarily rule out this non-existant contract?

Consider: we *could* all be just the dream of a butterfly. Does anyone take this seriously? No. Why? Because there is no evidence to support it.

__________________
"Blasus is an outstanding piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth... Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times

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Old Post 04-17-2002 04:11 PM
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StarcraftJunkie
Black Islander

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:

"But why are you addressing this? It was a side point, a brief meandering, a little comment that has nothing to do with the main point - that TNO has already served in the Blood War. I understand if you thought that memory was my evidence for the statement 'TNO served in the Blood War', but I had assumed you had completed the game and seen the other evidence (doesn't TTO say he learned alongside you when you served in the Blood War, for example?). Otherwise, don't make a straw man outta me. "

But TTO admits that he has no memories of the *first* incarnation, so if he learned along side you when you served in the Blood War, it was *another* incarnation. Thus, that's not conclusive proof that the original incarnation served in the Blood War.

"No, he wouldn't. Read what the Good Incarnation has to say. He says how you would *suffer* in an especially hellish afterlife after you died, and so that is why he sought out Ravel to make him immortal. You wouldn't be reborn as a wriggling larva in the Lower Planes to just suffer as any other diabolist. You had a special hell made for you, because of the vast sea of evil that was your life and deeds."

The *most* evil of people become either a lemure, manes, or hordeling. No matter how evil you are. No offense, but there's nothing to indicate that he's done anything beyond the evil of say, Vecna (when he was mortal and died), who became a larva like everyone else.

"Contracts with devils have a tendancy to be either immediate or eternal. A mage summons a devil and bargains with him to provide knowledge and power."

And how does TNO's case differ from the eternal aspect? He could have easily just signed his soul into the Blood War after his death. After all, there's numerous references about how being seperated from your mortality is *protecting* you from something that is seeking you, and TTO mentions that the afterlife won't be pleasant.... Being a footsoldier in the Blood War for all of eternity doesn't exactly seem a pleasant afterlife to me.

"In return the devil usually gets:

The mage is transported straight to the Pit of Baator to serve in the Blood War, or:
The mage, upon his death, becomes a petitioner in Baator to serve in various duties (building Baalzebul's cities, tearing up the streets of Dis, etc.)"

Since when? All references to contracts with fiends in the Planescape and other AD&D products simply say it's a bad idea, and nearly always ends badly for the mortal, usually with his soul being consigned to the lower plane of the fiend making the deal. Now, becoming a footsoldier in the Blood War is definately along the lines of this (and no, it doesn't have to be a mage, as you implied; TNO's first incarnation was obviously well versed in planar travel if he found Ravel's maze), especially since TNO's first incarnation was apparently reasonably powerful for a mortal (after all, he found Ravel and made himself immortal, after a fashion).

"Generally Blood War soldiers are either devils (lawful evil peeps who have died and been reborn as larvae who become lemures, nupperibos and the rest) or mercenaries (who haven't died but have been taken away by the legions of Hell). "

*sigh* Have you read Hellbound or Faces of Evil: the Fiends? It doesn't appear so. Mercenaries aren't necessarily "taken away by the legions of Hell" (and fyi, fiends hate it when the clueless use terms such as devil or demon, or the Nine Hells; it says this all over the Planescape boxed set, among other places); some of them serve quite willingly (they wouldn't be MERCENARIES otherwise), although most of them later find out it was a bad idea. Also, Yugoloths form an important part of battles on both sides of the Blood War (although they're notorious for betraying both sides, they're apparently too invaluable to ignore). Mortals tend to make up a large portion of the war, mostly as spies and such (after all, it's *very* hard to hide the lawful or chaotic auras from the enemies, and it's very hard for the fiends to repress their own nature, so even if their alignment *is* hidden, they often give themselves away. Mortals have no such problem).

"Besides, do you have any evidence for the 'contract' theory? Other than the novel (which has little to do with the game) and the explanation provided doesn't necessarily rule out this non-existant contract? "

Did I even refer to the novel once? My evidence is simple logic, and it could well have been some other reason that his soul acted as it did, but the only conclusion I can come to is some form of contract, unless he broke some obscure planar rule that makes him become a soldier in the Blood War in his mortal form. If his soul *didn't* act as others do (and no, no matter *how* evil you are, you don't keep your mortal form just for being evil; the afterlife doesn't work that way in Planescape), there *must* be something else at work, be it a contract with a fiend, direct deific interference, or something else.

Consider: we *could* all be just the dream of a butterfly. Does anyone take this seriously? No. Why? Because there is no evidence to support it.

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Old Post 04-17-2002 07:22 PM
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Padmewan
Saving Grace of the Isles

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Cambridge, MA

Jeez, calm down people.

I had the impression that one of TNO's later incarnations signed up for the Blood War. I'd bet the original was too smart to get tricked into something that stupid.

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Old Post 04-17-2002 09:05 PM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

quote:
Originally posted by StarcraftJunkie
But TTO admits that he has no memories of the *first* incarnation, so if he learned along side you when you served in the Blood War, it was *another* incarnation. Thus, that's not conclusive proof that the original incarnation served in the Blood War.


Muh? I didn't say (or perhaps didn't mean to say) that the original incarnation served in the Blood War; but one of his incarnations did. The idea being that if he signed a contract, and then jumped out, and later went back in as another incarnation, surely he would be recognised by the devils?

quote:
The *most* evil of people become either a lemure, manes, or hordeling. No matter how evil you are. No offense, but there's nothing to indicate that he's done anything beyond the evil of say, Vecna (when he was mortal and died), who became a larva like everyone else.


So why does the Good Incarnation say that the Lower Planes will be particularly horrific? As in nastier than normal?

And if that is so, then why, in the finale, is he not reborn as a slimy maggot on Avernus or wherever, but is intact and still looking like a scarred grey amnesiac?

quote:
And how does TNO's case differ from the eternal aspect? He could have easily just signed his soul into the Blood War after his death. After all, there's numerous references about how being seperated from your mortality is *protecting* you from something that is seeking you, and TTO mentions that the afterlife won't be pleasant.... Being a footsoldier in the Blood War for all of eternity doesn't exactly seem a pleasant afterlife to me.


By 'eternal' I meant that the contract effectively damns the signer to petitioner status in Baator by 'selling his soul' - changing his alignment to lawful evil and becoming a diabolist... hence, upon his death, he can expect to wake up a slave to the baatezu.

The only thing you are being protected from is Death, for because you and your mortality have been seperated, your true name split asunder and forgotten, he must take another life in your place. The protecting is how you are immortal - instead of you dying, another dies in your place.

Ah, but you are not a believer in the philosophy of evil. Truly, the Lower Planes are ideal to the evil, for there society has no 'rules' that keep everyone at the same level and prevent the cream rising to the top. There they can act unfettered by the pathetic ideas of altruism, which merely serve to ease guilt and hold everyone back so the slower ones can keep pace in the human race.

quote:
Since when? All references to contracts with fiends in the Planescape and other AD&D products simply say it's a bad idea, and nearly always ends badly for the mortal, usually with his soul being consigned to the lower plane of the fiend making the deal. Now, becoming a footsoldier in the Blood War is definately along the lines of this (and no, it doesn't have to be a mage, as you implied; TNO's first incarnation was obviously well versed in planar travel if he found Ravel's maze), especially since TNO's first incarnation was apparently reasonably powerful for a mortal (after all, he found Ravel and made himself immortal, after a fashion).


I was explaining the difference between signing up for a campaign in the Blood War and signing your soul over to Baator. Don't think I was saying those are the only acceptable outcomes for a deal with fiends; there are a multitude of outcomes - nor was I saying it must be a mage; it merely suited the example (a mage summons a devil; as far as I know, pikemen cannot do that... they go to Sigil or somewhere like that and find a devil to discuss terms with).

quote:
*sigh* Have you read Hellbound or Faces of Evil: the Fiends? It doesn't appear so. Mercenaries aren't necessarily "taken away by the legions of Hell" (and fyi, fiends hate it when the clueless use terms such as devil or demon, or the Nine Hells; it says this all over the Planescape boxed set, among other places); some of them serve quite willingly (they wouldn't be MERCENARIES otherwise), although most of them later find out it was a bad idea. Also, Yugoloths form an important part of battles on both sides of the Blood War (although they're notorious for betraying both sides, they're apparently too invaluable to ignore). Mortals tend to make up a large portion of the war, mostly as spies and such (after all, it's *very* hard to hide the lawful or chaotic auras from the enemies, and it's very hard for the fiends to repress their own nature, so even if their alignment *is* hidden, they often give themselves away. Mortals have no such problem).


*bigger sigh*

Yes, they are taken away. To fight in the Blood War, you have to be where it is fought, and that is not on the Prime (usually) nor in the streets of Sigil. The baatezu are the employers and the enforcers of the contract (when it comes to their benefits, at least). Hence, they have to 'take away' the mercenaries, since pikemen, in addition to being unable to summon fiends, cannot teleport - so the devils do it for them, or direct them to the nearest portal, or whatever. I did not mean it was kidnapping or anything like that.

quote:
[B]Did I even refer to the novel once? My evidence is simple logic, and it could well have been some other reason that his soul acted as it did, but the only conclusion I can come to is some form of contract, unless he broke some obscure planar rule that makes him become a soldier in the Blood War in his mortal form. If his soul *didn't* act as others do (and no, no matter *how* evil you are, you don't keep your mortal form just for being evil; the afterlife doesn't work that way in Planescape), there *must* be something else at work, be it a contract with a fiend, direct deific interference, or something else.


Argh! Am I so really hard to understand!?

If you had read SpamDevourer's post, you would see that the 'contract' theory is the reason mentioned in the novel. Hence, I mentioned it. Nothing more, nothing less. 'Kay?

Simple logic is all very well and good, but doesn't the Good Incarnation say that the reason why he became immortal was because the afterlife would not be paradise in any way, but would be pain and suffering all the way? No contracts, no deals, no Blood War is mentioned by him, nor is it given as a reason for your choosing immortality by anyone else (not that anyone else tells you why you became immortal). 'S not logic if it doesn't have the right facts (well it is, but you get what I mean).

See, contracts being the reason for your immortality aren't mentioned anywhere in Torment. Fear of the pain of the afterlife is. That is why the only conclusion I can come to is that because TNO was so evil (I don't mean simple, low-grade 'plotting to overthrow the good king' evil, I mean really nasty, bad evil, where you rape everyone you can just to feel better than them, to say 'I had one up on the multiverse') he was universally condemned by the planes to eternal *suffering* and *punishment* in the Lower Planes, and that is why he sought immortality, and not because of some poxy contract. Ah, but it's not canon, I hear you say...

Please, please, oh please *don't* tell me you are a rules lawyer. Don't tell me you sit with your Guide to the Planes at PnP and occasionally stick up your hand and say 'Ah, excuse me...' and proceed to point out that according to TSR (deceased) gelugons are *never* found outside of Cania, thank you very much.

DMs have a tool for people like that. It's called an ethereal mummy with vorpal bandages and an irrational hatred of a certain player character.

Strictly speaking, Black Isle shouldn't have created the Transcendant One or The Nameless One or the Fortress of Regrets, since those aren't all mentioned in the manuals, so it *can't* happen, ever, despite the DM being the one who makes the rules and changes them on a whim.

__________________
"Blasus is an outstanding piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth... Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times

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Old Post 04-17-2002 10:23 PM
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StarcraftJunkie
Black Islander

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:

"Muh? I didn't say (or perhaps didn't mean to say) that the original incarnation served in the Blood War; but one of his incarnations did. The idea being that if he signed a contract, and then jumped out, and later went back in as another incarnation, surely he would be recognised by the devils?"

That is what you did say, or at least implied. The BAATEZU wouldn't have recognized TNO from anything because, for one, his appearance has admittedly changed somewhat, and the planes are infinite. It's perfectly possible that any Baatezu he ran into either A: never encountered him or B: never knew about the contract in the first place (they don't spend their immortal lives just reviewing every contract that the Baatezu have ever made with a mortal).


"So why does the Good Incarnation say that the Lower Planes will be particularly horrific? As in nastier than normal?"

Because of the possible explanations I've listed before.

"And if that is so, then why, in the finale, is he not reborn as a slimy maggot on Avernus or wherever, but is intact and still looking like a scarred grey amnesiac?"

*sigh* Because of the possible explanations I've listed before. Do you even read my posts? There *is* a point, and that is that there's no way TNO would have shown up as anything *but* a larva, lemure, or manes from his sins in his first life without some extenuating circumstances.


"By 'eternal' I meant that the contract effectively damns the signer to petitioner status in Baator by 'selling his soul' - changing his alignment to lawful evil and becoming a diabolist... hence, upon his death, he can expect to wake up a slave to the baatezu."

That's not what the contracts do, Blasus. Like I said, you haven't read Hellbound or Faces of Evil: the Fiends, have you? They do a bit of discussing on the subject of contracts with fiends. Condemning your soul to the lower planes through one of these contracts does *not* make you lawful evil (although you certainly could have been lawful evil before), nor does it mean you necessarily become a regular petitioner there. After all, in one Planescape adventure module, one of your rewards from the Baatezu is a "universal" portal-key. It contains seven souls from said contracts, and opens any portal, obliterating one of the souls in the process. No, a contract is much different than just turning you lawful evil and forcing you into the lower planes. It usually involves consigning yourself to a *specific* fate in the lower planes, not just general petitionerhood (or at least your soul is sent to a *specific* Baatezu, to do with as he/she/it pleases).

"The only thing you are being protected from is Death, for because you and your mortality have been seperated, your true name split asunder and forgotten, he must take another life in your place. The protecting is how you are immortal - instead of you dying, another dies in your place."

Since when? It *never* says this in the game. Are you now the one taking things from the novel, not the game?

"Ah, but you are not a believer in the philosophy of evil. Truly, the Lower Planes are ideal to the evil, for there society has no 'rules' that keep everyone at the same level and prevent the cream rising to the top."

Actually, Baator has quite a number of rules and laws. Tell me, do you actually know anything about Planescape aside from the game?

"There they can act unfettered by the pathetic ideas of altruism, which merely serve to ease guilt and hold everyone back so the slower ones can keep pace in the human race."

Blah blah blah. Except no fiend would ever say this, because they more or less regard the human race as insects.

"I was explaining the difference between signing up for a campaign in the Blood War and signing your soul over to Baator."

You say that like they're mutually exclusive things.

"Don't think I was saying those are the only acceptable outcomes for a deal with fiends; there are a multitude of outcomes - nor was I saying it must be a mage; it merely suited the example (a mage summons a devil; as far as I know, pikemen cannot do that... they go to Sigil or somewhere like that and find a devil to discuss terms with). "

Baatezu! *sigh* Fine, come off like a prime if you want.


"Yes, they are taken away. To fight in the Blood War, you have to be where it is fought, and that is not on the Prime (usually) nor in the streets of Sigil."

You say that as if there aren't humanoid races that have migrated to the lower planes.

"The baatezu are the employers and the enforcers of the contract (when it comes to their benefits, at least)."

And their obligations. Yes, they'll look for loopholes and such to benefit themselves, but they *will* abide by the letter of the contract in *all* respects. After all, they are the epitome of law AND evil.

"Hence, they have to 'take away' the mercenaries, since pikemen, in addition to being unable to summon fiends, cannot teleport - so the devils do it for them, or direct them to the nearest portal, or whatever. I did not mean it was kidnapping or anything like that."

Actually, the mercenaries usually come to Baator itself and *then* sign up, so, no, the Baatezu don't "take them" anywhere. Or, they make contact in Sigil, and are given a place (and usually a portal) on Baator in order to discuss the specifics (it gives the Baatezu a position of power to bargain from).


"If you had read SpamDevourer's post, you would see that the 'contract' theory is the reason mentioned in the novel. Hence, I mentioned it. Nothing more, nothing less. 'Kay?"

Yet you mentioned it regarding my post. Keep what I say and what others say seperate, please.

"Simple logic is all very well and good, but doesn't the Good Incarnation say that the reason why he became immortal was because the afterlife would not be paradise in any way, but would be pain and suffering all the way? No contracts, no deals, no Blood War is mentioned by him, nor is it given as a reason for your choosing immortality by anyone else (not that anyone else tells you why you became immortal). 'S not logic if it doesn't have the right facts (well it is, but you get what I mean)."

Yet it doesn't say it *isn't* because of other reasons, nor does he *EVER* say that it was a specifically unpleasant afterlife because of his great evil; after all, being a larva or lemure is unpleasant enough as it is. He said there was no way to make up for what he had done (and TTO touches on this, as well), and says that he did great evil, but not that this was the specific reason he was sentenced to the Blood War.

"See, contracts being the reason for your immortality aren't mentioned anywhere in Torment."

And he never discusses the specifics. Thus, you can't claim that his saying it is proof that he didn't sign a contract with fiends, or PO a deity, or whatever, that caused his special afterlife.

"Fear of the pain of the afterlife is."

And he wouldn't fear being an eternal footsoldier in the Blood War because......?

"That is why the only conclusion I can come to is that because TNO was so evil (I don't mean simple, low-grade 'plotting to overthrow the good king' evil, I mean really nasty, bad evil, where you rape everyone you can just to feel better than them, to say 'I had one up on the multiverse') he was universally condemned by the planes to eternal *suffering* and *punishment* in the Lower Planes, and that is why he sought immortality, and not because of some poxy contract. Ah, but it's not canon, I hear you say..."

I said it wasn't canon for him to do so *for no reason at all* or for "great evil"; after all, the Vecna I gave as an example ruled an empire that caused great evil everywhere, and was so venerated for his *EVILNESS* he rose to godhood after his death. Think he might have been as close to the epitome of evil as you can be? TNO's first incarnation would have had to have laid waste to dozens of prime material worlds to even rival Vecna's evilness.

"Please, please, oh please *don't* tell me you are a rules lawyer. Don't tell me you sit with your Guide to the Planes at PnP and occasionally stick up your hand and say 'Ah, excuse me...' and proceed to point out that according to TSR (deceased) gelugons are *never* found outside of Cania, thank you very much. "

Actually, TSR never says that. And I'm not a rules lawyer, I'm a big believer in *LOGIC* and *willfull suspension of disbelief*. If your PC mages have wish as a 9th level spell, but other mages can cast it as a 1st level spell, you better have **** good reason that magic works differently for them. The same applies here; there has to be a *reason* and a good one at that, that TNO's afterlife was different. And no, his evil wasn't *that* exceptional. Why? Because there are examples of *incredibly* evil people who just appear as larva/manes/hordlings in the afterlife. *THAT'S* the special case for incredibly evil people, not appearing as yourself.

"DMs have a tool for people like that. It's called an ethereal mummy with vorpal bandages and an irrational hatred of a certain player character. "

lol, and since DMs have never once complained about rules-lawyering, I guess I'll have to beg forgiveness from you. *sigh* Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to resort to name-calling, Blasus.

"Strictly speaking, Black Isle shouldn't have created the Transcendant One or The Nameless One or the Fortress of Regrets, since those aren't all mentioned in the manuals, so it *can't* happen, ever, despite the DM being the one who makes the rules and changes them on a whim."

Actually, all of those abide by the rules, because there *are* no rules for them. Learn how to use willfull suspension of disbelief before you start lecturing me about how *I* should claim the game itself is impossible, or putting words in my mouth.

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Old Post 04-18-2002 03:54 AM
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Erebus
Son of Chaos and Brother of Nyx

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Tartarus

Don't you just get the feeling this thread is beginning to get long-winded ?


Erebus

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Old Post 04-18-2002 03:27 PM
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Trebleclef
Cynic of the Isles

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Beginning to?

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All l33t speakers must die!

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Old Post 04-18-2002 05:31 PM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

quote:
That is what you did say, or at least implied. The BAATEZU wouldn't have recognized TNO from anything because, for one, his appearance has admittedly changed somewhat, and the planes are infinite. It's perfectly possible that any Baatezu he ran into either A: never encountered him or B: never knew about the contract in the first place (they don't spend their immortal lives just reviewing every contract that the Baatezu have ever made with a mortal).


You'd be surprised. Baator has thousands upon thousands of petitioners, devils and planars in it, and it is a bureaucracy on a massive scale... I would imagine there are thousands of people employed just to file away records of contracts and census forms, never mind peruse them for no real benefit...

But that is irrelevant to the main point of discussion.

quote:
*sigh* Because of the possible explanations I've listed before. Do you even read my posts? There *is* a point, and that is that there's no way TNO would have shown up as anything *but* a larva, lemure, or manes from his sins in his first life without some extenuating circumstances.


Have you even played the game? There are extenuating circumstances - the first incarnation's vast sea of damnable deeds that were universally condemned, deeds so terrible that the evil of the Practical Incarnation (who was pretty damn evil) was but a tiny drop compared to it.

quote:
That's not what the contracts do, Blasus. Like I said, you haven't read Hellbound or Faces of Evil: the Fiends, have you? They do a bit of discussing on the subject of contracts with fiends. Condemning your soul to the lower planes through one of these contracts does *not* make you lawful evil (although you certainly could have been lawful evil before), nor does it mean you necessarily become a regular petitioner there. After all, in one Planescape adventure module, one of your rewards from the Baatezu is a "universal" portal-key. It contains seven souls from said contracts, and opens any portal, obliterating one of the souls in the process. No, a contract is much different than just turning you lawful evil and forcing you into the lower planes. It usually involves consigning yourself to a *specific* fate in the lower planes, not just general petitionerhood (or at least your soul is sent to a *specific* Baatezu, to do with as he/she/it pleases).


Perhaps I'm just using my sense of logic, hmm?

What I *meant* (I seem to be doing this a lot, you know) was what you said - when he signed a contract that promised his soul to the Pit, that is what happens - he goes to the Pit upon his death. And I would think dealing with the devils of Hell would generally be a lawful evil kinda action, no?

But this is also beside the point?

quote:
Since when? It *never* says this in the game. Are you now the one taking things from the novel, not the game?


Since you were told that when you die, another dies in your place allowing you to live again? Told to you by Ravel, Deionarra and TTO, I believe (or most certainly Ravel and Deionarra). Remember that?

quote:
Actually, Baator has quite a number of rules and laws. Tell me, do you actually know anything about Planescape aside from the game?


Do you know anything about my posts apart from the tiny flaws of communicating you choose to pick apart?

Notice the inverted commas around 'rules'? Like so? I *had* hoped you would have understood that as "rules of society, ranging from 'it's wrong to be nasty to people' to 'don't stick things up your nose'", perhaps, not as "laws and ordinances of Maladomini".

quote:
Blah blah blah. Except no fiend would ever say this, because they more or less regard the human race as insects.


Gah! I was referring to evil people in general.

quote:
You say that like they're mutually exclusive things.


They might happen together, but it doesn't mean they are one and the same thing.

quote:
Baatezu! *sigh* Fine, come off like a prime if you want.


Whoah, dude. *It isn't real*. Baatezu is as good a term as any. Why should it matter?

quote:
You say that as if there aren't humanoid races that have migrated to the lower planes.


Right. Time out. Time out for god's sake or I'm gonna flip.

Have you, ever, in your entire life, ever, at all, ever, even once, ever heard of an example? Something that illustrates a point? Not a defining term that is the be-all-and-end-all of something, but an example?

That can count for a lot of other stuff, too.

I was continuing with my mage (and my planar pikeman). Hence the Prime/Sigil statement. Was that also too hard to comprehend?

quote:
Yet you mentioned it regarding my post. Keep what I say and what others say seperate, please.


ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Why me!? Why, after the intellectual stimulation of before, the dizzying heights of acquiesence, do I have to have this! This!

It was a side-statement, making a general nod that I knew that the 'contract' was mentioned in the novel and nothing more! I did not say that you said anything about the novel! It was future tense! I thought that I was making a sly comment about the novel and it's relevance to the game! But no! Now precious time is wasted with you fools! Feh!

quote:
Yet it doesn't say it *isn't* because of other reasons, nor does he *EVER* say that it was a specifically unpleasant afterlife because of his great evil; after all, being a larva or lemure is unpleasant enough as it is. He said there was no way to make up for what he had done (and TTO touches on this, as well), and says that he did great evil, but not that this was the specific reason he was sentenced to the Blood War.


Yet it doesn't say it *is* because of the contract! Ack! Did you even notice my 'butterfly' sentence? The one saying how we *could* all be the dream of a butterfly, but no one takes this idea seriously because there is no evidence to support it - oh, except that there isn't any evidence to prove it isn't. Which is not a method of constructive thinking.

quote:
And he never discusses the specifics. Thus, you can't claim that his saying it is proof that he didn't sign a contract with fiends, or PO a deity, or whatever, that caused his special afterlife.


The Good Incarnation. Read.

quote:
And he wouldn't fear being an eternal footsoldier in the Blood War because......?


A) He is immensely powerful and strong
B) He has worse things to fear (fighting in the Blood War and having an unscratchable itch).
C) His punishment might actually be to fight in the Blood War for all eternity... but as a result of being so damn incredibly evil, not because he signed a contract (aren't those things temporary, anyway?).

quote:
I said it wasn't canon for him to do so *for no reason at all* or for "great evil"; after all, the Vecna I gave as an example ruled an empire that caused great evil everywhere, and was so venerated for his *EVILNESS* he rose to godhood after his death. Think he might have been as close to the epitome of evil as you can be? TNO's first incarnation would have had to have laid waste to dozens of prime material worlds to even rival Vecna's evilness.


Bammo. You said that I cannot know TNO did not sign a contract because he did not 'mention the specifics'. You cannot know that the TNO's life was not supremely evil, far greater than Vecna's evil, because he did not 'mention the specifics'. Just throwing it back at you.

quote:
Actually, TSR never says that. And I'm not a rules lawyer, I'm a big believer in *LOGIC* and *willfull suspension of disbelief*. If your PC mages have wish as a 9th level spell, but other mages can cast it as a 1st level spell, you better have **** good reason that magic works differently for them. The same applies here; there has to be a *reason* and a good one at that, that TNO's afterlife was different. And no, his evil wasn't *that* exceptional. Why? Because there are examples of *incredibly* evil people who just appear as larva/manes/hordlings in the afterlife. *THAT'S* the special case for incredibly evil people, not appearing as yourself.


*bursts into tears*

I. Know. That. But. It. Was. Just. An. Example. Not. To. Be. Taken. Seriously.

Again, how do you know that TNO's life was far more evil than these examples? That he was not just incredibly evil, but supremely evil to the point of combusting in general evilness?

quote:
lol, and since DMs have never once complained about rules-lawyering, I guess I'll have to beg forgiveness from you. *sigh* Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to resort to name-calling, Blasus.


Hmm?

Huh?

What?

Hey?

How'd you get name calling from 'ethereal mummy with vorpal bandages'?

And aren't you the one being hostile?

quote:
Actually, all of those abide by the rules, because there *are* no rules for them. Learn how to use willfull suspension of disbelief before you start lecturing me about how *I* should claim the game itself is impossible, or putting words in my mouth.


Is being universally condemned for your extremely long life of supremely evil deeds mentioned specifically in the rules?

And isn't the DM allowed to alter and change *anything* in his campaign, because *he* is the master of it, not you or I or TSR (deceased)? Including details about pre-set worlds? The cosmology of the Planes? Anything he likes?

See, I'm only continuing that which you have told me by logic. I say this, and you correct me with a counter-argument. Thereby I see your point of view. Yes?

*sigh*

Is English your first language? Because you are misinterpreting my posts so much that it's disturbing.

__________________
"Blasus is an outstanding piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth... Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times

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Old Post 04-18-2002 05:44 PM
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Erebus
Son of Chaos and Brother of Nyx

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Tartarus

Trebleclef : You have a point.


Erebus

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Old Post 04-18-2002 06:00 PM
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Moonray
Black Islander

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Never Never Land

"The only thing you are being protected from is Death, for because you and your mortality have been seperated, your true name split asunder and forgotten, he must take another life in your place. The protecting is how you are immortal - instead of you dying, another dies in your place."

OH, is that how that worked! =P

"There they can act unfettered by the pathetic ideas of altruism, which merely serve to ease guilt and hold everyone back so the slower ones can keep pace in the human race."

Nietzsche lives on in the planes ... !

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Old Post 04-18-2002 06:28 PM
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Hunter of Gnomes
Black Islander

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: I love to kill gnomes land

Guys, have you ever considered using 'Occam's Razor' to solve the dispute over TNO appearing in the same form after he dies?

The most likely answer is the most simple one., though certainly not the most interesting. They probably didn't want to confuse people by having our hero appear as a little squirming maggot in the lower planes....in other words, not a matter of AD&D logic, but one of style.

Besides, it might be rather depressing to know you spent the entire game just so you could become a larva; even in eternal damnation, the ending they had was much more dignified, striding off to battle in the Blood War for the rest of eternity rather than wriggling in some pile amongst a thousand other damned souls.

__________________
"....and from the mist strode a figure of shadow, Long Sword of Gnome Dismembering in hand, and with a string of giant, severed noses dangling from his belt, and the Gnomes did know their time was at an end..."

- Book of the Gnome Slayer, Chapter 15, verse VII

DOWN WITH THE TURNIP LOVERS!!!

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Old Post 04-18-2002 07:00 PM
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Moonray
Black Islander

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Never Never Land

quote:
Originally posted by Hunter of Gnomes
Guys, have you ever considered using 'Occam's Razor' to solve the dispute over TNO appearing in the same form after he dies?

The most likely answer is the most simple one., though certainly not the most interesting. They probably didn't want to confuse people by having our hero appear as a little squirming maggot in the lower planes....in other words, not a matter of AD&D logic, but one of style.



Occam's Razor is fine for science ... but for stories? Especially literary stories? Planescape: Torment isn't "literary," but it is *deep*, and Black Isle continually reinforces the story's complexity: tons of information is given through the "journal entries" (where you'd learn about lemure transformation); several past incarnations and their actions are briefly alluded to throughout the story, etc. Much thought has been put into the story and its consequences, and as a result, I don't think the simplest answer for the ending will suffice anymore than interpreting Chaucer's Wife of Bath as *merely* the embodiment of "women evil" will suffice. =P

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Old Post 04-18-2002 07:36 PM
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Erebus
Son of Chaos and Brother of Nyx

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Tartarus

Maybe it's a stupid question, but is TNO even dead at the end of the story. If he merged with his mortality, why would he be ? Remember what TTO says (if you force him to merge with you thanks to the bronze sphere) : he says he'll be really glad when you *finally* die. "finally" implies "not just now"...
And remember that it is possible (with high charisma) to persuade TTO to merge with you. Why would he do that if you're to die just after ? As your mortality, he would disappear immediately.
What if TNO's crimes had actually been so great that he is condemned (by the gods ?) to go to the Lower Planes *without* being dead ?

That's how I always saw it, anyway...


Erebus

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Old Post 04-18-2002 09:11 PM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

Spoiler

Heh. Here at Black Isle we take our games *very* seriously.

But straight from the horse's mouth:

(Fairly obviously - MAJOR MAJOR SPOILERS)
__________________________________

Nameless One - "But why - I have so many questions that YOU can answer. Why did we become immortal? Why?"

Good Incarnation - "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that are here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given me a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."

Nameless One - "But you seem so much... calmer. More well intentioned."

Good Incarnation - "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned."

Good Incarnation - "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."

__________________
"Blasus is an outstanding piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth... Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times

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Old Post 04-18-2002 09:12 PM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Maybe it's a stupid question, but is TNO even dead at the end of the story. If he merged with his mortality, why would he be ? Remember what TTO says (if you force him to merge with you thanks to the bronze sphere) : he says he'll be really glad when you *finally* die. "finally" implies "not just now"...
And remember that it is possible (with high charisma) to persuade TTO to merge with you. Why would he do that if you're to die just after ? As your mortality, he would disappear immediately.
What if TNO's crimes had actually been so great that he is condemned (by the gods ?) to go to the Lower Planes *without* being dead ?

That's how I always saw it, anyway...



Well, as I remember (in)correctly...

If TNO was just a planewalking Prime, and his first life was the life of evil, and all his incarnations are considered part of that first life, then he does die at the end, but to be reborn in the Lower Planes under the terms of the special punishment (evidently to remember all his crimes and to retain his hideously scarred form, mentally and physically). He will eventually die a second death (though for normal petitioners this would generally be merging with their plane or god), and it is then that TTO will rejoice.

Oh, and you don't convince your mortality to join with you. You threaten him with the Blade of the Immortal, unmaking yourself, your name or the fact that he will waste away physically as you do mentally.

__________________
"Blasus is an outstanding piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth... Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times

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Old Post 04-18-2002 09:19 PM
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EUIX
Dictator

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Bong water

The Nameless One dies at the end, when he merged with TTO Death finally caught him and sent him to the lower planes, which was the fate the Good Incarnation wanted to avoid. Its just that at the end TNO has come to accept his punishment.

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-Friedrich Nietzsche; Thus Spake Zarathustra

"...a little poison here and there that makes pleasant dreams and much poison at last for a pleasant death."

-Friedrich Nietzsche; Thus Spake Zarathustra

"WAR THEREFORE IS AN ACT OF VIOLENCE INTENDED TO COMPEL OUR OPPONENT TO FULFIL OUR WILL.

Violence arms itself with the inventions of Art and Science in order to contend against violence. Self- imposed restrictions, almost imperceptible and hardly worth mentioning, termed usages of International Law, accompany it without essentially impairing its power. Violence, that is to say, physical force (for there is no moral force without the conception of States and Law), is therefore the MEANS; the compulsory submission of the enemy to our will is the ultimate object. In order to attain this object fully, the enemy must be disarmed, and disarmament becomes therefore the immediate OBJECT of hostilities in theory. It takes the place of the final object, and puts it aside as something we can eliminate from our calculations. "

-Karl von Clausewitz; On War

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Old Post 04-18-2002 09:28 PM
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Erebus
Son of Chaos and Brother of Nyx

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Tartarus

EUIX : Yes, but WHY does Death come for him ? Did he have a heart attack or something ? People don't just die like that, even when they've been as evil as TNO. TNO wasn't immortal anymore, indeed, but as long as nobody kills him...

Blasus : Well, yes, but petitioners are not mortal (they already died). So TTO would have disappeared with TNO's death. That's the reason TNO can threaten him with the blade of the immortal or unmaking himself, remember ?
And I disagree about what you say. You do not "threaten" TTO with the fact that he's wasting away. You actually persuade him. That's the only ending where he doesn't say he will rejoice with your death, meaning he chose of his own free will. Actually, I think that's the best ending.


Erebus

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Old Post 04-18-2002 11:44 PM
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Hunter of Gnomes
Black Islander

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: I love to kill gnomes land

quote:
Occam's Razor is fine for science ... but for stories? Especially literary stories?


In this situation, it certainly seems neccesary. Everyone here seems to be involved in a mental exercise I doubt ANYONE at Black Isle Studios spent a tenth as much time on worrying about. Everyone seems to be scouring the farthest corners of every AD&D and Planescape release they can find for answers as to why TNO doesn't turn into a Larva, while ignoring the obvious answer 'Maybe he kept his human form because it made the ending video look better?'

True, Torment is a deep game, a very deep game. But the videos in the game are already a bit out of sync with the rest of the game, as you can see in the 'Woman in the intro movie...' thread (Zombies rather than shadows pointing accusing fingers at TNO being the biggest example, but also the parade of scenes which have nothing to do with anything.) I get the impression they were created largely before the game took it's present form, and are created more to 'look good' than to follow the exact specifications of what happens to souls in AD&D after they die. That would also explain why TNO doesn't just fall over dead, but gets sucked down in flames to the lower planes.

Occam's razor is better for science, but in this case we have a case of people creating a mountain out of a molehill. Don't magnify something which can be easily explained with an extraordinarily simple solution into something so incredibly out of all proportion, unless you're simply looking to justify the designer's decision with the rules rather than explain why they made it.

__________________
"....and from the mist strode a figure of shadow, Long Sword of Gnome Dismembering in hand, and with a string of giant, severed noses dangling from his belt, and the Gnomes did know their time was at an end..."

- Book of the Gnome Slayer, Chapter 15, verse VII

DOWN WITH THE TURNIP LOVERS!!!

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Old Post 04-19-2002 01:08 AM
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Padmewan
Saving Grace of the Isles

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Cambridge, MA

But if we didn't have pointless, lawyerly, over-analytical debates over inconsequential parts of the story, why would any of us be here???

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Old Post 04-19-2002 03:55 PM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

quote:
In this situation, it certainly seems neccesary. Everyone here seems to be involved in a mental exercise I doubt ANYONE at Black Isle Studios spent a tenth as much time on worrying about. Everyone seems to be scouring the farthest corners of every AD&D and Planescape release they can find for answers as to why TNO doesn't turn into a Larva, while ignoring the obvious answer 'Maybe he kept his human form because it made the ending video look better?'

True, Torment is a deep game, a very deep game. But the videos in the game are already a bit out of sync with the rest of the game, as you can see in the 'Woman in the intro movie...' thread (Zombies rather than shadows pointing accusing fingers at TNO being the biggest example, but also the parade of scenes which have nothing to do with anything.) I get the impression they were created largely before the game took it's present form, and are created more to 'look good' than to follow the exact specifications of what happens to souls in AD&D after they die. That would also explain why TNO doesn't just fall over dead, but gets sucked down in flames to the lower planes.

Occam's razor is better for science, but in this case we have a case of people creating a mountain out of a molehill. Don't magnify something which can be easily explained with an extraordinarily simple solution into something so incredibly out of all proportion, unless you're simply looking to justify the designer's decision with the rules rather than explain why they made it.



Would that be Occam's Razor 'simplest explanation is the best one' or Occam's Razor 'keep the number of entities down in an explanation'?

'Sides, the debate would appear to be over why TNO became immortal. The two sides being: he signed a contract, based upon the fact that it doesn't say he didn't do it in the game, and also only really really *really* evil people wouldn't turn into larvae upon their death, and TNO (for some reason not stated) is not one of these incredibly evil people; or he was an incredibly evil person and so condemned to a *special* fate, as evidenced by the Good Incarnation's words. Not over why he keeps his form.

Fow which, I would remind you all, there are (I suppose) two reasons. The out-of-game one is, as you said, to look good. The in-game one would be that it appears to be part of the universal damning he got for his crimes against the Planes. After all, what would be the point of the punishment if the criminal forgets why he is being punished? None at all, so TNO retains his physical form (with it's tattoos and scars to remind him of his life) and his mental form (with all it's memories to also remind him of his life... and why this is happening to him).

And he dies straight away because he should have died long ago, and now Death runs up to take him away before he can become immortal again. In-game, that is.

__________________
"Blasus is an outstanding piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth... Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times

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Old Post 04-19-2002 04:14 PM
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Blasus
Grand High Magus of the Isles

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the sky.

quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Blasus : Well, yes, but petitioners are not mortal (they already died). So TTO would have disappeared with TNO's death. That's the reason TNO can threaten him with the blade of the immortal or unmaking himself, remember ?
And I disagree about what you say. You do not "threaten" TTO with the fact that he's wasting away. You actually persuade him. That's the only ending where he doesn't say he will rejoice with your death, meaning he chose of his own free will. Actually, I think that's the best ending.



Well, petitioners don't remain that way forever. They *do* die a second death, even if it is not by conventional means - they 'die' by merging with their plane/god/whatever, and in the case of planar creatures such as fiends and celestials, by being killed by damn-fool adventurers on their home plane. After all, isn't it then that they move onto the True Death?

I didn't mean 'threaten' as in 'Merge with me or I'll stab you", but more that by making him face up to the fact that as TNO dies and loses his mind (to become a big drooling babe), so TTO will lose his substance, he has to merge with you unless he wishes to fade away to nothing. That is why he has to wear a brambled frame of Ravel's night hag magicks. TTO would never wish to merge with you and become something with no free will, no sentience, something subservient to another, especially since he *always* hates you, for what you are and what you remind him of. I doubt he is going to even grudgingly tolerate you just because you said a few words. Not after thousands of years brooding over his hatred of you.

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Old Post 04-19-2002 04:26 PM
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Phelan
Uh oh!

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Texas

jeez.
maybe she shoulda just said "enemies six"

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Old Post 04-20-2002 04:11 AM
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