"Muh? I didn't say (or
perhaps didn't mean to say) that the original incarnation
served in the Blood War; but one of his incarnations did. The
idea being that if he signed a contract, and then jumped out,
and later went back in as another incarnation, surely he would
be recognised by the devils?"
That is what you did
say, or at least implied. The BAATEZU wouldn't have recognized
TNO from anything because, for one, his appearance has
admittedly changed somewhat, and the planes are infinite. It's
perfectly possible that any Baatezu he ran into either A:
never encountered him or B: never knew about the contract in
the first place (they don't spend their immortal lives just
reviewing every contract that the Baatezu have ever made with
"So why does the Good Incarnation say
that the Lower Planes will be particularly horrific? As in
nastier than normal?"
Because of the possible
explanations I've listed before.
"And if that is so,
then why, in the finale, is he not reborn as a slimy maggot on
Avernus or wherever, but is intact and still looking like a
scarred grey amnesiac?"
*sigh* Because of the possible
explanations I've listed before. Do you even read my posts?
There *is* a point, and that is that there's no way TNO would
have shown up as anything *but* a larva, lemure, or manes from
his sins in his first life without some extenuating
"By 'eternal' I meant that the
contract effectively damns the signer to petitioner status in
Baator by 'selling his soul' - changing his alignment to
lawful evil and becoming a diabolist... hence, upon his death,
he can expect to wake up a slave to the baatezu."
That's not what the contracts do, Blasus. Like I said,
you haven't read Hellbound or Faces of Evil: the Fiends, have
you? They do a bit of discussing on the subject of contracts
with fiends. Condemning your soul to the lower planes through
one of these contracts does *not* make you lawful evil
(although you certainly could have been lawful evil before),
nor does it mean you necessarily become a regular petitioner
there. After all, in one Planescape adventure module, one of
your rewards from the Baatezu is a "universal" portal-key. It
contains seven souls from said contracts, and opens any
portal, obliterating one of the souls in the process. No, a
contract is much different than just turning you lawful evil
and forcing you into the lower planes. It usually involves
consigning yourself to a *specific* fate in the lower planes,
not just general petitionerhood (or at least your soul is sent
to a *specific* Baatezu, to do with as he/she/it pleases).
"The only thing you are being protected from is Death,
for because you and your mortality have been seperated, your
true name split asunder and forgotten, he must take another
life in your place. The protecting is how you are immortal -
instead of you dying, another dies in your place."
Since when? It *never* says this in the game. Are you
now the one taking things from the novel, not the game?
"Ah, but you are not a believer in the philosophy of
evil. Truly, the Lower Planes are ideal to the evil, for there
society has no 'rules' that keep everyone at the same level
and prevent the cream rising to the top."
Baator has quite a number of rules and laws. Tell me, do you
actually know anything about Planescape aside from the game?
"There they can act unfettered by the pathetic ideas
of altruism, which merely serve to ease guilt and hold
everyone back so the slower ones can keep pace in the human
Blah blah blah. Except no fiend would ever say
this, because they more or less regard the human race as
"I was explaining the difference between
signing up for a campaign in the Blood War and signing your
soul over to Baator."
You say that like they're
mutually exclusive things.
"Don't think I was saying
those are the only acceptable outcomes for a deal with fiends;
there are a multitude of outcomes - nor was I saying it must
be a mage; it merely suited the example (a mage summons a
devil; as far as I know, pikemen cannot do that... they go to
Sigil or somewhere like that and find a devil to discuss terms
Baatezu! *sigh* Fine, come off like a prime
if you want.
"Yes, they are taken away. To fight
in the Blood War, you have to be where it is fought, and that
is not on the Prime (usually) nor in the streets of Sigil."
You say that as if there aren't humanoid races that
have migrated to the lower planes.
"The baatezu are
the employers and the enforcers of the contract (when it comes
to their benefits, at least)."
And their obligations.
Yes, they'll look for loopholes and such to benefit
themselves, but they *will* abide by the letter of the
contract in *all* respects. After all, they are the epitome of
law AND evil.
"Hence, they have to 'take away' the
mercenaries, since pikemen, in addition to being unable to
summon fiends, cannot teleport - so the devils do it for them,
or direct them to the nearest portal, or whatever. I did not
mean it was kidnapping or anything like that."
Actually, the mercenaries usually come to Baator
itself and *then* sign up, so, no, the Baatezu don't "take
them" anywhere. Or, they make contact in Sigil, and are given
a place (and usually a portal) on Baator in order to discuss
the specifics (it gives the Baatezu a position of power to
"If you had read SpamDevourer's
post, you would see that the 'contract' theory is the reason
mentioned in the novel. Hence, I mentioned it. Nothing more,
nothing less. 'Kay?"
Yet you mentioned it regarding my
post. Keep what I say and what others say seperate, please.
"Simple logic is all very well and good, but doesn't
the Good Incarnation say that the reason why he became
immortal was because the afterlife would not be paradise in
any way, but would be pain and suffering all the way? No
contracts, no deals, no Blood War is mentioned by him, nor is
it given as a reason for your choosing immortality by anyone
else (not that anyone else tells you why you became immortal).
'S not logic if it doesn't have the right facts (well it is,
but you get what I mean)."
Yet it doesn't say it
*isn't* because of other reasons, nor does he *EVER* say that
it was a specifically unpleasant afterlife because of his
great evil; after all, being a larva or lemure is unpleasant
enough as it is. He said there was no way to make up for what
he had done (and TTO touches on this, as well), and says that
he did great evil, but not that this was the specific reason
he was sentenced to the Blood War.
being the reason for your immortality aren't mentioned
anywhere in Torment."
And he never discusses the
specifics. Thus, you can't claim that his saying it is proof
that he didn't sign a contract with fiends, or PO a deity, or
whatever, that caused his special afterlife.
the pain of the afterlife is."
And he wouldn't fear
being an eternal footsoldier in the Blood War because......?
"That is why the only conclusion I can come to is that
because TNO was so evil (I don't mean simple, low-grade
'plotting to overthrow the good king' evil, I mean really
nasty, bad evil, where you rape everyone you can just to feel
better than them, to say 'I had one up on the multiverse') he
was universally condemned by the planes to eternal *suffering*
and *punishment* in the Lower Planes, and that is why he
sought immortality, and not because of some poxy contract. Ah,
but it's not canon, I hear you say..."
I said it
wasn't canon for him to do so *for no reason at all* or for
"great evil"; after all, the Vecna I gave as an example ruled
an empire that caused great evil everywhere, and was so
venerated for his *EVILNESS* he rose to godhood after his
death. Think he might have been as close to the epitome of
evil as you can be? TNO's first incarnation would have had to
have laid waste to dozens of prime material worlds to even
rival Vecna's evilness.
"Please, please, oh please
*don't* tell me you are a rules lawyer. Don't tell me you sit
with your Guide to the Planes at PnP and occasionally stick up
your hand and say 'Ah, excuse me...' and proceed to point out
that according to TSR (deceased) gelugons are *never* found
outside of Cania, thank you very much. "
never says that. And I'm not a rules lawyer, I'm a big
believer in *LOGIC* and *willfull suspension of disbelief*. If
your PC mages have wish as a 9th level spell, but other mages
can cast it as a 1st level spell, you better have **** good
reason that magic works differently for them. The same applies
here; there has to be a *reason* and a good one at that, that
TNO's afterlife was different. And no, his evil wasn't *that*
exceptional. Why? Because there are examples of *incredibly*
evil people who just appear as larva/manes/hordlings in the
afterlife. *THAT'S* the special case for incredibly evil
people, not appearing as yourself.
"DMs have a tool
for people like that. It's called an ethereal mummy with
vorpal bandages and an irrational hatred of a certain player
lol, and since DMs have never once
complained about rules-lawyering, I guess I'll have to beg
forgiveness from you. *sigh* Just because someone disagrees
with you doesn't mean you have to resort to name-calling,
"Strictly speaking, Black Isle shouldn't have
created the Transcendant One or The Nameless One or the
Fortress of Regrets, since those aren't all mentioned in the
manuals, so it *can't* happen, ever, despite the DM being the
one who makes the rules and changes them on a whim."
Actually, all of those abide by the rules, because
there *are* no rules for them. Learn how to use willfull
suspension of disbelief before you start lecturing me about
how *I* should claim the game itself is impossible, or putting
words in my mouth.
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